Comments on: Fractional Jets Were A Great Story http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/ Business advice from start ups to shut downs. Sun, 05 Feb 2012 04:33:19 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3 By: RSVPair: The Air Charter Directory » Blog Archive » Can rebranding help fight the double whammy of a stale economy and a flawed business model? http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-10714 RSVPair: The Air Charter Directory » Blog Archive » Can rebranding help fight the double whammy of a stale economy and a flawed business model? Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:40:38 +0000 http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-10714 [...] co-founder of Marcil Tech Group, whose subsidiaries include the Jet Owner Group and RSVPair, predicted the fall of fractional ownership companies back in 2006, and even before then, the lack of profits [...] […] co-founder of Marcil Tech Group, whose subsidiaries include the Jet Owner Group and RSVPair, predicted the fall of fractional ownership companies back in 2006, and even before then, the lack of profits […]

]]> By: Steve Woodhead http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-689 Steve Woodhead Mon, 26 Feb 2007 07:46:51 +0000 http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-689 I agree with Piers. The fractional model works for many but not all markets. Aircraft operators are particularly vulnerable to 'deadhead' flights and overall efficiency issues, whereas other areas such as yachts, exotic cars and apartments have far better allocation cycles. Put us on the list for a bottle of champagne Piers! Regards Steve I agree with Piers. The fractional model works for many but not all markets. Aircraft operators are particularly vulnerable to ‘deadhead’ flights and overall efficiency issues, whereas other areas such as yachts, exotic cars and apartments have far better allocation cycles.

Put us on the list for a bottle of champagne Piers!
Regards
Steve

]]> By: Piers Brown http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-687 Piers Brown Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:33:41 +0000 http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-687 Hey Adam - it's coming and that's why http://fractionallife.com is there, so feel free to wait and see - I'll Fed Ex you a bottle of champagne! Best Piers Hey Adam - it’s coming and that’s why http://fractionallife.com is there, so feel free to wait and see - I’ll Fed Ex you a bottle of champagne!
Best
Piers

]]> By: adam http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-686 adam Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:12:39 +0000 http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-686 Piers, While your site is sexy and I am sure you mean well, the fact is that fractional ownership makes sense in some models, but not others. Name one fractional jet operator that makes money, and I'll FedEx you a nice flat warm beer, ok? All the best, Adam Piers,
While your site is sexy and I am sure you mean well, the fact is that fractional ownership makes sense in some models, but not others. Name one fractional jet operator that makes money, and I’ll FedEx you a nice flat warm beer, ok?
All the best,
Adam

]]> By: Aviation Marketing Intelligence » Blog Archive » Fractional Jet Ownership Dying? http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-685 Aviation Marketing Intelligence » Blog Archive » Fractional Jet Ownership Dying? Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:10:32 +0000 http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-685 [...] Are the wheels coming of the fractional jet ownership wagon? Some think so. Private jet gurus who claim to be “in the know” worry about the viability of an industry that just doesn’t seem to make sense, or money.read more | digg story    February 24th, 2007 at 9:47 am [...] […] Are the wheels coming of the fractional jet ownership wagon? Some think so. Private jet gurus who claim to be “in the know” worry about the viability of an industry that just doesn’t seem to make sense, or money.read more | digg story    February 24th, 2007 at 9:47 am […]

]]> By: Piers Brown http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-684 Piers Brown Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:01:45 +0000 http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-684 Makes interesting reading, but surely your 'fractional' thoughts are eroding with time. Fractional ownership is becoming accepted in the UK and around the world, not just in aviation and entry level costs are reducing - VLJ's at $1million, well I never! People have less time to indulge, but still want luxuries here and now hence fractional ownership makes sense..... Makes interesting reading, but surely your ‘fractional’ thoughts are eroding with time. Fractional ownership is becoming accepted in the UK and around the world, not just in aviation and entry level costs are reducing - VLJ’s at $1million, well I never!
People have less time to indulge, but still want luxuries here and now hence fractional ownership makes sense…..

]]> By: adam http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-10 adam Mon, 07 Aug 2006 12:05:56 +0000 http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-10 David, Thank you.. truth telling is very important (and rare) in business aviation. It is unfortunate, but our industry is still a hobby on steroids. Once we bring more real business people (like bankers who leave banking to operate Barons!) enter the space.. the more it will change. Much of the woes of Part 135 / GA ... and even fractional I see as a cultural problem, not so much technological. In other words, once pilots, operators, etc. stop treating everything they do as the "best" and a "secret" and the more they talk openly in public forums.. the faster the industry will advance, based on one thing that the web really promotes - HONESTY. David,
Thank you.. truth telling is very important (and rare) in business aviation. It is unfortunate, but our industry is still a hobby on steroids. Once we bring more real business people (like bankers who leave banking to operate Barons!) enter the space.. the more it will change.
Much of the woes of Part 135 / GA … and even fractional I see as a cultural problem, not so much technological. In other words, once pilots, operators, etc. stop treating everything they do as the “best” and a “secret” and the more they talk openly in public forums.. the faster the industry will advance, based on one thing that the web really promotes - HONESTY.

]]> By: adam http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-9 adam Mon, 07 Aug 2006 12:00:53 +0000 http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-9 Harold, Thanks for the excellent feedback - the answers (as I see them) are quite simple: The manufacturers bleed money to extend their brand into fractional (Bombardier, Cessna, Raytheon)... NetJets is another story..they just raid Mr. Buffett's coffers and hope to show him a profit some day. Actually their ability to survive is one of the things that I debate with http://www.richardaboulafia.com occasionally, since he thinks they have a shot. I think that they have no idea what kind of mess they have created.. but hey!.. that's just me. The reality is that your Part 121 experience tells you WHO will survive = The word COMMERCIAL aircraft implies they make money or have the ability to do so. Most of the aircraft that NetJets operates by definition are not commercial aircraft. (Namely they are not about efficiency and optimization - more like a limo service that operates Rolls' which I would still not equip my fleet with ...even if the clients demanded Rolls'.) The fact is that too many aircraft types, too many variables and too many fussy clients with strange non-scalable needs is a recipe for the POORHOUSE. Re: learning from FRAX.. yes, for sure.. they have taught us Part 135 folks that standardization, best practices, consistency of equipment, service and contractual terms are what effectively stunt the growth of Part 135. Believe it or not.. the big change will come from the profitability and development of businesses like yours and probably not http://www.dayjet.com ... though they are the most scientific group I have seen so far. Harold,
Thanks for the excellent feedback - the answers (as I see them) are quite simple: The manufacturers bleed money to extend their brand into fractional (Bombardier, Cessna, Raytheon)… NetJets is another story..they just raid Mr. Buffett’s coffers and hope to show him a profit some day. Actually their ability to survive is one of the things that I debate with http://www.richardaboulafia.com occasionally, since he thinks they have a shot. I think that they have no idea what kind of mess they have created.. but hey!.. that’s just me.
The reality is that your Part 121 experience tells you WHO will survive = The word COMMERCIAL aircraft implies they make money or have the ability to do so. Most of the aircraft that NetJets operates by definition are not commercial aircraft. (Namely they are not about efficiency and optimization - more like a limo service that operates Rolls’ which I would still not equip my fleet with …even if the clients demanded Rolls’.) The fact is that too many aircraft types, too many variables and too many fussy clients with strange non-scalable needs is a recipe for the POORHOUSE.
Re: learning from FRAX.. yes, for sure.. they have taught us Part 135 folks that standardization, best practices, consistency of equipment, service and contractual terms are what effectively stunt the growth of Part 135. Believe it or not.. the big change will come from the profitability and development of businesses like yours and probably not http://www.dayjet.com … though they are the most scientific group I have seen so far.

]]> By: Harold Coghlan http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-8 Harold Coghlan Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:15:47 +0000 http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-8 Adam, I think you are right on as far as the fractionals. They are all "growing"...right to the poorhouse. All we read is that they have increased their fleets by X%, or have added X number of clients, yet, every year they seem to report financial losses. If i did that, I would go out of business (I know, I flew for enough Chapter 11 Airlines to know that you can't continually loose money and survive). The real question is, How do they stay in business? At first (long time ago), they said they would make money "as soon as we grow to have critical mass" (where have we heard that before...People Express or Presidential or Midway?). But now, in 2006, some of these large fractionals have hundreds of aircraft (bigger than some large 121 airlines), yet are still reporting losses! What's the trick? I do believe the standard charter industry can learn some valuable lessons from the fractionals, such as how clients like to have standarized fleets, uniforms, aircraft interiors, etc. Just can't have all those horrible financial losses. Is there something I'm missing? Keep on aviating! Adam, I think you are right on as far as the fractionals. They are all “growing”…right to the poorhouse. All we read is that they have increased their fleets by X%, or have added X number of clients, yet, every year they seem to report financial losses. If i did that, I would go out of business (I know, I flew for enough Chapter 11 Airlines to know that you can’t continually loose money and survive). The real question is, How do they stay in business? At first (long time ago), they said they would make money “as soon as we grow to have critical mass” (where have we heard that before…People Express or Presidential or Midway?). But now, in 2006, some of these large fractionals have hundreds of aircraft (bigger than some large 121 airlines), yet are still reporting losses! What’s the trick? I do believe the standard charter industry can learn some valuable lessons from the fractionals, such as how clients like to have standarized fleets, uniforms, aircraft interiors, etc. Just can’t have all those horrible financial losses. Is there something I’m missing? Keep on aviating!

]]> By: David Gentry http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-7 David Gentry Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:03:34 +0000 http://adamwebster.com/2006/07/21/telling_a_great_story/#comment-7 I appreciate people who tell the truth, as you did in this story about fractional ownership. I appreciate people who tell the truth, as you did in this story about fractional ownership.

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